Temple of Zagan

A rather unusual essay from Reddit that was posted on 4chan’s /pol board for discussion.  For context, this is something written 8 years ago, by an Asian person who has spent most of their adult life working as a white collared office worker:

This post serves as an intro and opportunity for further exploration into a trait that is pronounced in whites. I will call it Angling.

Most non-white societies emphasize mutualism; where goodwill begets goodwill. In such societies, doing something like patiently listening to the other person earns you credit in their eyes. However, in an opportunistic society, doing so means you are ‘subservient’ and lower in social status. Putting East-West aside, we can note that women tend to be more mutualistic than men. This is why women in the workforce have been instructed not to offer the group coffee because rather than being viewed in a positive light to be given goodwill in return, the group sees the offerer as lower status. In effect, a good deed and goodwill can backfire. Historically, Asians have built stable civilizations on the back of goodwill. Aryan societies (which I use to characterize whites, but especially Anglo-Germanic emphasis; excluding Jews and Slavs and discounting the influence of Southern Europeans) have utilized an opportunistic model which is more zero-sum gain- I succeed at your expense.

Minorities in America often find dealing with whites exhausting and find them difficult. But the thought process stops there. What is happening beneath the surface?

Back to Angling. Angling for what? Angling for social dominance and ultimately for power. For unlike mutualistic societies, where there is rigid hierarchy defined by roles, in an opportunistic society – everything is up for grabs. This increases the importance of behavioral techniques that amount to persuasion. This can include everything from sales-like techniques to passive-aggression to wear down the other. Simple interactions therefore can boil down to contests over ‘frame’ and who has the upper hand.

Let’s get specific. Here’s a basic thing sales people do. They will begin by making a strong first impression that includes grooming, being dressed well, confidence, and a big shit-eating grin. People instinctively accept the first-impression deeply and it creates a bank of goodwill they can draw from – it doesn’t take long for a white person to start cashing in. A sales person may begin with a way to connect- for example mentioning that you know someone in common. This strengthens a perceived bond. Once the salesman knows you show some ‘liking’, he will try to move to translate that into higher status. For example, you may respond to his initial conversation and he will not respond or give a delayed response. This is to try to subtly drive home that what you say doesn’t matter, or that he is in control of the conversation. Goodwill can immediately be translated into perceived higher status. If you read anything about pickup/PUA, as much as some standard negativists bellyache about it, it illustrates well the idea of making a good first impression (with confidence or with wit) and then shifting to demonstrating higher value – which can be done through body language showing superiority, or even subtly criticizing/mocking the other person. The other’s willingness to accept the latter, depends on the former. IE: If you simply demonstrate what may be perceived as rudeness without first creating “liking”, it falls flat on its face.

I am convinced that Asians in general, and including Asian-Americans, do not understand just how central Angling is to whites in social interaction. Asians mistakenly let their guard down, influenced by their home culture even if they were born here, and think that an interaction with another person is an opportunity to talk openly without defensiveness. When you’re in a conversation where the other person is Angling, it is a mistake to show uncertainty, self-deprecation or weakness. It is a mistake to be too patient a listener. It’s a mistake to always agree with the other person or laugh too overtly at their jokes. It’s a mistake to let them interrupt you and then patiently listen to them as though nothing happened. It’s mistake to let yourself be blindsided by their inevitable criticism of what you say- because they will do so simply to demonstrate superiority. It’s also a mistake to assume your “liking” for the person is based on their actual nature that will persist. The principles of social dominance are always at play when dealing with someone who Angles.

Angling is not merely done through Donald-Trump style salesmanship and attempting dominance. Meek white men will attempt to do a very similar thing; largely by trying to assert themselves when they’re speaking and attempt to show disinterest or critique of what you’re saying. The vast majority of whites do not even realize what they’re doing; it is simply the culture they grew up in. It is natural behavior to them. (there are those who do in fact know what they’re doing – the Wall Street salesman, the skilled PUA, the white executive skilled in playing politics).

It’s my experience in numerous dealing with Aryans and Jews that they apply Angling differently. Aryans use the salesman technique I described above- confidence mixed with demonstrating higher value techniques. It is more overt attempts at domination. Jews on the other hand use a blend of manipulation techniques; assessing the psychological profile of who they’re dealing with and then attempting to subtly manipulate their emotions of greed, or fear. It is done more through linguistic prowess and feigned mutualism. White women fall into this camp as well. Unsurprisingly, whereas the penchance for Angling is consistent, the methods vary depending on the person’s perceived social status. People with lower perceived status (or those perceived as ‘outsiders’) will use more indirect methods.

It’s important to recognize that while everyone seeks some advantage in interpersonal relations, whites are simply more insistent and aggressive about seeking social dominance and have a wide toolkit for it. They also do not shun the interpersonal conflict involved in order to achieve this dominance. In fact, the most attractive target for them is the person who is unwilling to deal with the stress of social tension; who buckles before it, can’t recognize it, doesn’t have the toolset to deal with it. Unfortunately, Asians often fit into this camp because of social upbringing. Asian women especially. In fact, taken to the extreme, a cautious person will submit to the socially dominant type and actually begin to favor them. It is human psychology.

Asians must be more on guard for white Angling than others. Because whites have run down our image ahead of time, including our masculinity, this emboldens the white Angler all the more; in fact, he wont’ forgive himself if he doesn’t come out on top over someone he perceives to be lower status and less masculine than him.

This kind of psychological, verbal/behavioral and even social aggression flies beneath the surface. Of course narrow-minded 1st gen immigrant parents spend their whole lives in ignorance of these realities, and do nothing to prepare their Asian children growing up in the West. But even larger society, including many whites, are sitting ducks for the practitioner of these techniques. Sales (ie: books by Zig Ziglar), Marketing (ie: Cialdini), and PUA (ie: Mystery) are windows into these methods. However, it is simply the white culture, esp. Anglo-Germanic types, that carries even beginner-methods of these techniques into everyday life.

There’s more on this topic but I’ll leave it here. There are techniques for dealing with Angling and I’ll add those later.

The above article sparked heavy debate on the discussion board.  I think the author’s description of the “angling” behavior that he observed is very accurate, but I don’t quite think it’s exclusively a white phenomenon.  As a personal example, an Indian high school classmate of mine, one who was born and raised in the US, engaged in this sort of behavior frequently.

An English poster on /pol offered the following response:

This is an American thing. They socialise very competitively. You have to interrupt people, especially in groups, to be able to speak at all, which is viewed as very rude elsewhere.

A poster from reddit, possibly a Chinese person, expanded more on a similar train of thought:

What you are describing is not white or Western culture. It is American, Canadian, and Australian culture. Moreover, even in these countries, these toxic habits were a 20th century development (and hence, have nothing to do with the purported East/West dichotomy). In the wake of WW2, the influence of the WASP ruling class was seen to decline, and elements of Wild West culture and Southern (Neo Confederate) culture became mainstream.

A Canadian poster on 4chan’s /pol had an analysis that I probably liked out of all the responses I read:

I sort of understand where they are coming from but they are wrong that this is a “white” issue rather, this issue is from a breaking up of the family system and hierarchies from capitalism.

They don’t understand how rude black people are probably because – this (I’m assuming) asian poster has never properly interacted with the average black person. How do I know this? I married an Asian, they have no black friends. I ask my SOs Asian friends if they have any black friends – all say no.

Now, I do agree that many asians are hospitable and generous if they invite you to your house or dinner. In my experience it’s very rare that you have dinner and alcohol at an Asian friends house and then are sent a bill afterwards. This did happen to me multiple times when I went to a Wasp new money type party.

Now, everytime I’ve interacted with Hongkongers they have been generous, polite and wonderful. When I interact with mainlanders they are rude, brash, lack manners and are entitled. The japanese and the Koreans that I’ve interacted with are also very polite.

Why are chinese mainlanders assholes? Communism. They killed the nobility, eradicated words of politeness and honorifics. They burned the histories of their nobility. There is no hierarchy, there is no honor. When you can be killed or rehomed at any time by the government there is no need to be polite.

White culture used to be full of honorifics. Like Japan, it was unprofessional to refer to others by their first names. Ie the boss would be called Mr Smith, not Johnny. People would say “sir” and mam.

Due to capitalism, and the retardation of the upper classes (from inbreeding) and they growing power of the new world, the old money nobility lacked cultural significance. Honorifics were dropped. We forgot about our hierarchies.

We have become so causal that we work from home in our pjamas. We are extremely impolite.

What does it mean to host? To serve. To be polite. To be hospitable.

Who hosts in the household? The wife. Who taught the wife? Her mother.

Now the mother works. She cannot teach her daughter how to host. This Knowledge of politeness is lost.

Who teaches children manners and morality? The mother. She works now.

The majority of descendants of slaves (DOS) blacks had mother’s who worked. The DOS are overwhelming rude, lack manners and are entitled. Upper class african immigrants act “white” aka are polite. Its called “respectability politics”. DOS blacks hate when one of their own is polite – “acts white” and moves up in class, they hate african upper-class migrants too.

Up until the 70s the majority of white women didn’t work. They stayed at home and taught their children morality and manners and hosted. We’ve had a couple generations of white mothers rapidly entering the work place. Now we have impolite entitled generations – gen Y and Z. These generations are the products of hyper capitalism and modern socialism where women are expected to work whilst raising their children, where “self care” is conflated with consumerism, retail therapy and entitlement. Teachers are complaining that the newest gen are fucked up animalistic brats who are still shitting in diapers aged 5 because their mother’s are not present.

At least 15% of American kids are being raised by single mothers. At least 25% of children are being raised in “blended families” aka unstable households where both the biological father and step father lack proper authority and the mothers tend to take on both roles as mother and father, which just means the mothers role is disregarded. Its only going to get worse.

Asians still have nuclear families and live with extended families so the results of bratty, impolite children aren’t being felt.

From my own personal observation it feels the “Angling” behavior described in the original essay above is a cultural thing not quite exclusive to just whites.  There’s probably some environments, such as an office full of white collared workers, where one would encounter it a lot more.

More disturbingly though, it feels like this sort of behavior is generally spreading in society.  Psychopathic social shenanigans like Angling can provide immediate personal benefits, while the benefits from being courteous are longer term; this likely contributes to the spread of this sort of behavior.

 

 

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